Discussion:
CD10 and offset printers
(too old to reply)
Bill
2004-08-28 12:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi

I designed a flyer with fountain fills. I set the fountain steps to 512

Why every print shop I've sent the document print the fountains with a
clearly visible granularity like it was printed with a low res inkjet
printer?

I therefore sent my CD10 file to the print shop and it didn't change
anything.

They say it's because my document is made with a inkjet printer and they use
offet equipment and my software (CD10) is nothing but junk.

Is there really incompatibility between CD10 and offset printing or is the
trade shop and/or printshop double crossing me ?

What should I do to make sure my works are printed exactly like my document
in the future ?

Thanks
Michael Cervantes
2004-08-28 14:06:51 UTC
Permalink
14 years using DRAW and 90 percentage of my layouts finish printed on
presses and webpresses. Not problems at all.

PDF is the best way to send your files to them. If they contain separation
even better, because they can ruin your files.

Excellent prints are not related to the application, but to the designer,
prepress operator and the pressman.

There aren't easy ways, it requires a long learning curve.
--
Michael Cervantes
C-Tech Volunteer
Jeff Harrison
2004-08-28 16:46:36 UTC
Permalink
I designed a flyer with fountain fills. I set the fountain steps to 512 Why
every print shop I've sent the document print the fountains with a
Post by Bill
clearly visible granularity like it was printed with a low res inkjet
printer?
*** Even though this shop may have an offset press, your job may have been
printed on a digital machine, an entirely different process. If you say you
want 300 full color tri-fold brochures (8.5 x 11 ea.) this won't go on a
press, not worth making plates for a small orders. The reason I ask is that
digital printers have a tricky time with some gradients/fountain fills, and
reveal the limitations of that specific process, and not the designer or
software. If your job IS being printed on a press for sure, ask how the film
is being made, or if it's "direct to plate". I know one shop where they
separated a file to B/W laser prints, then shoot that with a camera to make
film for the plates - lots of detail gets lost unless the line screen is
really rough, like 75 LPI.
Post by Bill
I therefore sent my CD10 file to the print shop and it didn't change
anything. They say it's because my document is made with a inkjet printer
*** How was it "made" with an inkjet printer? Maybe they mean for color
reference when you printed off samples for yourself as you were building
it.... Their concern here would be more color-related than anything - such
as blues coming out purple at their end.

and they use offet equipment and my software (CD10) is nothing but junk. Is
there really incompatibility between CD10 and offset printing or is the
Post by Bill
trade shop and/or printshop double crossing me ?
*** You are being TRIPLE crossed. CorelDRAW rules, I've created many
high-end pieces without problems. People who've worked in print for more
than 3 years know that Draw is very capable - even if they are Adobe fans.
Don't let them intimidate you. Just because someone has a print shop open
for business doesn't always mean they know what THEY'RE doing at their end.
Post by Bill
What should I do to make sure my works are printed exactly like my document
in the future ?
*** There are reasons why it didn't turn out as you expected. Take some time
to track this down. Using different software won't change this. Take your
sample from them and discuss the result with another shop to get a second
opinion. If the first shop was rude with you, they may be on the defensive,
trying to cover a mistake they made - but don't want to re-run the job over
$$$ issues. It happens.

JD
Jeff Harrison
2004-08-28 18:44:53 UTC
Permalink
I meant to say, detail is often lost no matter what line screen is used on
the artwork if later shot with a camera. Making film from an imagesetter is
the way to go. Direct to plate can be good too.

At one shop they shoot stuff that was printed from a laser at 80 LPI. It's
okay a for a cheesy 2 color flyer but not for full color offset work. You
want to separate at 133 LPI or so. Make sure yo uknow the difference between
DPI/PPI and LPI.

JD

lots of detail gets lost unless the line screen is
Post by Jeff Harrison
really rough, like 75 LPI.
Bill
2004-08-29 15:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeff

I realize that a little more history will help.

1st my output is a Lexmark z705.

The order is 500 copies of a trifold color flyer. Yeah a very small order
but it's meant only to go in some professionnal places.

I printed a document I wanted done by the printshop.

When they saw it, they asked for the corresponding file because my output
would produce a moire pattern. I understand that if they use a drum scanner
like Hell's as it produces screens.

The printshop told me to send my file to the trade shop because they
(printshop) dont produce their separations themselves.

So I've sent the original CD10 file saved in CD9 format (they don't have
CD10) knowing they can adjust tracking, screen angles and so on within CD
and reproduce exactly my printout.

Obviously the trade shop didn't know much about CD since the separation they
sent to the printshop produced a fountain made of clearly visible color
dots.

The proof the printshop showed to me even had thick outlines (maybe 80%
black) around some text where I wanted only a light shading. The pressman
corrected that on my request, I don't know how but he did.

That printshop doesn't have digital output.

That's the actual context.

I tried some ditgital places but realy, they did so bad that I rejected
their jobs.

I'm not a computer graphist, I'm a programmer but I think I am almost a CD
power user. I'm not a printing expert but I also know enough I think to see
when I'm getting fooled. And right now I fell I'm getting.
Post by Jeff Harrison
I designed a flyer with fountain fills. I set the fountain steps to 512 Why
every print shop I've sent the document print the fountains with a
Post by Bill
clearly visible granularity like it was printed with a low res inkjet
printer?
*** Even though this shop may have an offset press, your job may have been
printed on a digital machine, an entirely different process. If you say you
want 300 full color tri-fold brochures (8.5 x 11 ea.) this won't go on a
press, not worth making plates for a small orders. The reason I ask is that
digital printers have a tricky time with some gradients/fountain fills, and
reveal the limitations of that specific process, and not the designer or
software. If your job IS being printed on a press for sure, ask how the film
is being made, or if it's "direct to plate". I know one shop where they
separated a file to B/W laser prints, then shoot that with a camera to make
film for the plates - lots of detail gets lost unless the line screen is
really rough, like 75 LPI.
Post by Bill
I therefore sent my CD10 file to the print shop and it didn't change
anything. They say it's because my document is made with a inkjet printer
*** How was it "made" with an inkjet printer? Maybe they mean for color
reference when you printed off samples for yourself as you were building
it.... Their concern here would be more color-related than anything - such
as blues coming out purple at their end.
and they use offet equipment and my software (CD10) is nothing but junk. Is
there really incompatibility between CD10 and offset printing or is the
Post by Bill
trade shop and/or printshop double crossing me ?
*** You are being TRIPLE crossed. CorelDRAW rules, I've created many
high-end pieces without problems. People who've worked in print for more
than 3 years know that Draw is very capable - even if they are Adobe fans.
Don't let them intimidate you. Just because someone has a print shop open
for business doesn't always mean they know what THEY'RE doing at their end.
Post by Bill
What should I do to make sure my works are printed exactly like my
document
Post by Bill
in the future ?
*** There are reasons why it didn't turn out as you expected. Take some time
to track this down. Using different software won't change this. Take your
sample from them and discuss the result with another shop to get a second
opinion. If the first shop was rude with you, they may be on the defensive,
trying to cover a mistake they made - but don't want to re-run the job over
$$$ issues. It happens.
JD
Michael Cervantes
2004-08-29 18:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Are you printing spot colors?

Are your gradient unlock to produce 256 steps?
--
Michael Cervantes
C-Tech Volunteer
Bill
2004-08-30 14:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Michael,

I'm using the pantone palette so it's spot colors I presume. The only colors
in the document are pantone 2573 and process black.

In the fountain dialog it's at 512 as in the print dialog and the Lexmark is
adjusted at Maximum quality. Since it's capable of 4800dpi I assume that the
printouts are done at that resolution or at least at 900.

But even in the possibility of my printout beeing unsuitable for commercial
printing techiques, they had my CD file so they could have adjusted
everything to their taste what they obviously did not do.

Since then I set the fountain steps both for the fountain and the print
dialogs to 900. It doesn't make much a difference to the eye even through a
magnifier.

I even have a test transparent (how do you call that transparent with agate
and picas measures on it and samples for 50-150 LPI. It's from National
Standard Photo Engraving) to check for screen angles and LPI. I didn't see
any moiré in my printout. How can they tell it will produce one, only by eye
???
Post by Michael Cervantes
Are you printing spot colors?
Are your gradient unlock to produce 256 steps?
Michael Cervantes
2004-08-30 21:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Ok you are working with PMS ink.

When outputing files to produce separations, ink angle should be set
manually for PMS ink, if not they are going to end with same angle. Moire.

If you are sending a PDF file containg separation, then they should disable
Use Printing Screen in Acrobat Print Dialog. This option is enable by
default, and it print all the plates with the same angle, not matter if the
PDF specify a different one.

About the gradient. In DRAW when you apply a gradient, you should unlock it
in its property bar for they to use 256 steps.

Another point you should have into consideration, if you are creating
gradient from white to a PMS, your gradient will be CMYK. You should set
same PMS in both end and the white one with 0% Tint.

Hope it helps
--
Michael Cervantes
C-Tech Volunteer
Bill
2004-08-31 13:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi Michael

My gradiants are 0-100% PMS at 512 steps.
Every time I have sent a file to a tradeshop it was either CDR or EPS
according to their whishes.

So my conclusion is THEY are not skilled to produce separations for offset
printing out of computer graphics.

Now the question is : how to find a skilful printer at reasonable price for
my jobs ?
What should I ask them to know if they are skilled for that kind of job ?

Thanks
Post by Michael Cervantes
Ok you are working with PMS ink.
When outputing files to produce separations, ink angle should be set
manually for PMS ink, if not they are going to end with same angle. Moire.
If you are sending a PDF file containg separation, then they should disable
Use Printing Screen in Acrobat Print Dialog. This option is enable by
default, and it print all the plates with the same angle, not matter if the
PDF specify a different one.
About the gradient. In DRAW when you apply a gradient, you should unlock it
in its property bar for they to use 256 steps.
Another point you should have into consideration, if you are creating
gradient from white to a PMS, your gradient will be CMYK. You should set
same PMS in both end and the white one with 0% Tint.
Hope it helps
--
Michael Cervantes
C-Tech Volunteer
Michael Cervantes
2004-08-31 18:10:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Hi Michael
My gradiants are 0-100% PMS at 512 steps.
Maximum available is 256, you can't set 512 in the gradient. You are using
the print option, and not the right one. Select your object, and open
gradient level lock in the DRAW Property Bar.
Post by Bill
Every time I have sent a file to a tradeshop it was either CDR or EPS
according to their whishes.
So my conclusion is THEY are not skilled to produce separations for offset
printing out of computer graphics.
Now the question is : how to find a skilful printer at reasonable price for
my jobs ?
What should I ask them to know if they are skilled for that kind of job ?
Easy. Ask them if they can work with PC users. If they tell you that PC or
DRAW are inferior, bla...bla...bla... They aren't good enough. People tent
to covert their lack of capacity blaming on others. If you see this, run
from them, they are not professionals.
Bill
2004-09-02 15:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi Michael
Post by Michael Cervantes
Post by Bill
My gradiants are 0-100% PMS at 512 steps.
Maximum available is 256, you can't set 512 in the gradient. You are using
the print option, and not the right one. Select your object, and open
gradient level lock in the DRAW Property Bar.
?? In the fountain fill dialog box, in the Options section, Steps. You open
the little padlock and enter the amount you want up to 999, I entered 512
and left the padlock open.

In the Print dialog box, under the Misc. tab I set the Fountain Steps to 512
also.

Is there another place or way I should specify it again ?
Post by Michael Cervantes
Post by Bill
What should I ask them to know if they are skilled for that kind of job ?
Easy. Ask them if they can work with PC users. If they tell you that PC or
DRAW are inferior, bla...bla...bla... They aren't good enough. People tent
to covert their lack of capacity blaming on others. If you see this, run
from them, they are not professionals.
The problem is they never say that at first.

My conclusion is that there are lots of print shops that are doing excellent
jobs but unfortunately they almost never produce their own separations as
it's a costy business, it's left to tradeshops. Serious tradeshops do
serious works but also at relatively high fees, not suitable for small jobs.

At the same time, with the relative ease computers brought, lots of
so-called typesetters popped out with rented equipment (often are
fly-by-night). Often they don't have the the money to buy drivers, or cards
to drive their equipment, or hire skiled personel, they cut prices and try
anything to grab money. What they say and what they do are two different
things. They should learn to say NO or I CAN'T instead of making troubles
like this.

I think that printing is a hard business these days. It makes it hard to the
customer too.
Graeme Standage
2004-09-02 17:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
In the Print dialog box, under the Misc. tab I set the Fountain Steps to 512
also.<
Which anything other than PS level 3 will be a waste of time - 256 is
the max.

Depending on tints involved, area of graphic and lpi it is possible to
have to high a fountain step setting which can degrade things.

Reading through though it sounds like the printer might just have set
to low a lpi or did not alter screen angle.

--
Graeme

{Please reply to newsgroup}
Graeme Standage
2004-09-02 17:19:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
In the fountain dialog it's at 512 as in the print dialog and the Lexmark is
adjusted at Maximum quality. Since it's capable of 4800dpi I assume that the
printouts are done at that resolution or at least at 900.<
You said this was an inkjet? These dpi settings bear no relation to
LPI, or dpi as far as imagesetters are concerned.
Your inkjet will not 'proof' in these areas like an imagesetter.

Sounds simply that the 'printer' made an error in producing the work,
or, could you have unknown to yourself individual object screen
rulings set under the postscript options of the pantone fill dialogue?
This would overide other areas and not show up in your inkjet.......

--
Graeme

{Please reply to newsgroup}
Bill
2004-09-03 17:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Graeme
Post by Graeme Standage
You said this was an inkjet? These dpi settings bear no relation to
LPI, or dpi as far as imagesetters are concerned.
Your inkjet will not 'proof' in these areas like an imagesetter.
Of course not. My printout was the goal to achieve.
Post by Graeme Standage
Sounds simply that the 'printer' made an error in producing the work,
or, could you have unknown to yourself individual object screen
rulings set under the postscript options of the pantone fill dialogue?
This would overide other areas and not show up in your inkjet.......
That's the conclusion I come to also. Since I gave them the original CD10
file I assume they didn't produce their separations correctly. Or they
simply don't know how to produce one. I know that CD10 allows to set the
screen angles and the dot pattern for PostScript devices. They just didn't
use that feature. And now they try to make me believe my drawing is a piece
of scrap and Corel is the worst thing that man made.

Like I've said before, if you are impressed by them you will pay them to
make the drawing again not talking about the time you will lose with them.
It's a way to make more money for them.

But I'm not that easy to impress ! :-)
Graeme Standage
2004-08-29 00:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Corel is 100% okay for offset printing. No issues if done correctly.

I see you have many replies, just one more to add with regard to
fountain steps and 'banding'.

Make sure your printer has set the fountain steps in their print
driver high enough. If you leave the padlock 'unlocked' in the
coreldraw fountain fill dialogue this will overide the setting in the
print driver - good safety net.

Incidently, 250 steps is the maximum PS Lavel 2 will output at even if
set higher. 512 is the max for some PS level 3 RIPS.

Even though your inkjets might look smooth these printers themsleves
will 'hide' some potential issues with regard to 'banding'.
Tint values and size of area covered will also have an affect on how
banding might show.


--
Graeme

{Please reply to newsgroup}
Hunter Elliott
2004-08-30 14:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Hi
I designed a flyer with fountain fills. I set the fountain steps to 512
Bill, I'm glad you dropped by over here - the guys giving feedback have a
lot of experience at this and can definitely get you on the right track
here!

Hunter
Bill
2004-08-30 14:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Hunter

Another good advice from you, thanks.
Post by Hunter Elliott
Post by Bill
Hi
I designed a flyer with fountain fills. I set the fountain steps to 512
Bill, I'm glad you dropped by over here - the guys giving feedback have a
lot of experience at this and can definitely get you on the right track
here!
Hunter
p***@gmail.com
2017-10-15 09:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Hi
I designed a flyer with fountain fills. I set the fountain steps to 512
Why every print shop I've sent the document print the fountains with a
clearly visible granularity like it was printed with a low res inkjet
printer?
I therefore sent my CD10 file to the print shop and it didn't change
anything.
They say it's because my document is made with a inkjet printer and they use
offet equipment and my software (CD10) is nothing but junk.
Is there really incompatibility between CD10 and offset printing or is the
trade shop and/or printshop double crossing me ?
What should I do to make sure my works are printed exactly like my document
in the future ?
Thanks
The Khaefi Ltd. is one of the worldwide & largest corporate for sales of printing equipment. Our business headquarter is in Germany and you could find and purchase your printing machines with us and if you wish to sale your second-hand printing machines we are interested in itEmail Address : ***@khaefi-gmbh.de
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